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Author Topic: Compound supercharging.  (Read 5459 times)
hondastaR
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« on: February 28, 2005, 05:14:36 PM »

I've been kicking around various ideas for the Tercel and am debating about trying to build a twincharged setup for it.  I remember back in the day HKS had a kit for the MK1 MR2.  It was a setup that basically blew compressed air through the OEM blower.  The setup I'm looking to build would be similar to this:



The exception being that in my setup a Roots S/C would be used instead of a small turbo for low RPM operation.  Also the S/C would be seperate from the intake manifold so intercooling would be possible.

Just wanted to know what others thought about this idea or Compound supercharging/twinchaging in general.

BTW, I'll do a diagram later tonight of what I had in mind.   :wink:

-hondastaR
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« on: February 28, 2005, 05:14:36 PM »

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91siredrex
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« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2005, 04:59:33 PM »

superchargers blow. turbos own u
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sukkers
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« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2005, 09:37:07 AM »

dont you think thats getting too complicated for a "reliable" project?

if your looking for a twin turbo setup, why not just do two small turbos and keep it somewhat simple.

the only thing i dont understand is why they have the large turbo take over at such a low rpm, i would think around 5-6k would be more ideal.
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hondastaR
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« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2005, 06:35:40 PM »

Nah not a twin turbo setup.  A blower and a turbo setup.  A twin turbo setup on a 1.3L wouldn't work too well.  The idea is to get more grunt down low in the rev range.   Aside from having a pulley machined and fabing up an idler pulley and some bracketry I think it would be fairly easy to mock up.

Since I'm only looking to run a T28 and SC12 superchargers can be had for cheap I figured I might try to make this work.
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hondastaR
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« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2005, 07:18:45 PM »

Wow this turned out better than expected!  haha Microsoft Paint owns!  This is my basic idea.  Hopefully this clears up some confusion.

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« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2005, 04:05:26 AM »

no i understand what you ment in regards to using the supercharger instead of the smaller turbo, but the complexity is still there in regards to having to do the intake piping with check valve.

wouldnt it be easier to setup a 75 direct port nitrous shot, dont know if N2O is street legal in Kansas, i know it is in Texas

but going alone those lines as you drawn out, i would think it would be easier to not have both intakes of the SC and turbo connected, but have the SC air intake seperate since you cant just by-pass the SC like in the sequential turbo design with the exhaust gas flange
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« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2005, 08:48:51 AM »

N20 is illegal here i beleive, not that it stops anyone...  I would think if you can get the parts cheap why the hell not try  :crazy:
The basic concept seems like it would be valid.  You can put kansas on the map for new import car tuning technology  :mrgreen:
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hondastaR
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« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2005, 09:57:19 AM »

Quote
no i understand what you ment in regards to using the supercharger instead of the smaller turbo, but the complexity is still there in regards to having to do the intake piping with check valve.


The check valve would actually be pretty easy since it could be sourced from Home Depot or Lowes.  

Quote
wouldnt it be easier to setup a 75 direct port nitrous shot, dont know if N2O is street legal in Kansas, i know it is in Texas


I've never really liked nitrous.  The concept here is to have good low end torque and top end power on demand.    

Quote
but going alone those lines as you drawn out, i would think it would be easier to not have both intakes of the SC and turbo connected, but have the SC air intake seperate since you cant just by-pass the SC like in the sequential turbo design with the exhaust gas flange


The problem with that would be that I would run into a situation where it would require another check valve or a secondary throttle body on the manifold.  Otherwise I'll run into a funky issue with vacuum or a situation where one blower is making boost in a pipe where compressed air can escape.  



Another alternative is to get rid of the check valve entirely and just have the turbo blowing air strictly through the supercharger.  This is how the old HKS twincharger kit for the MR2 and the Meguires Integra worked.  The draw back of this is that I would be dealing with higher (compounded) boost pressures and wouldn't be able to run as much turbo boost.



With the earlier idea I could simply disengage the SC's electromagnetic clutch with a pressure switch and run plain turbo boost.

Quote
You can put kansas on the map for new import car tuning technology

I wish.   Cool   Just thinking out of the box a little bit.  Might be a fun project to mess around with.   :mrgreen:

Quote
The basic concept seems like it would be valid.


I think so too.  Again the toughest part will be figuring out the pulley ratio, fabricating bracketry, and getting a pulley(ies) machined.  Over all I think it would be pretty cool.
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« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2005, 06:05:54 PM »

Haha I'm a freaking genius!  

Check out what SPI Power Excel in NJ did to this Mini Cooper S...

http://spipowerexcel.com/newimages/spi%20mcs%20dyno.mpg













Look at that torque!  Looks like I found my Summer project.   :lol:
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« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2005, 04:12:00 AM »

what are those blips in the torque curve?

thats a nice setup though
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hondastaR
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« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2005, 10:05:06 AM »

This was the car's first dyno run with minimal tuining.  It utilized piggyback electronics (Apex'i if I remember correctly) and a stock ecu.

SPI and another company called Helix have several twincharged Mini Cooper Ss running around.  They are both planning to sell their respective turbo kits to the public pretty soon.   I'm just thrilled to see new interest in this again.   :mrgreen: Contrary to the opinion of a lot of the nah sayers, the people I've heard of who owned and ran the setups loved them.  Plus they make decent power.  I think the main reason why twincharging isn't widely accepted is because the initial costs can be prohibative.
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« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2005, 10:11:00 AM »

unless your vehicle already comes equipped with one or the other. dont get me wrong i like the idea and have heard of older big blocks with the same principal put to use. but generally i go with K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple, Stupid)
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hondastaR
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« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2005, 10:20:52 AM »

Here is an updated dyno of the same car.  Good tuning = minimal blips!  :mrgreen:

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« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2005, 10:26:33 AM »

Quote
unless your vehicle already comes equipped with one or the other. dont get me wrong i like the idea and have heard of older big blocks with the same principal put to use. but generally i go with K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple, Stupid)


The motor I'm swapping into the Tercel is already factory turbo from Toyota.  The supercharger is too.  :wink:  All that needs to be fabricated are the bracketry for the supercharger and pully(ies).  Since I'm deleteing AC from the car I think a SC in it's place is a decent trade off.  Either way I'm also planning on running a PFC, so I should have a decent way to tune it as well.  

  :mrgreen:
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« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2005, 02:00:04 PM »

I had thought that Toyota had done this also, but I know for sure Nissan has:

http://members.surfeu.fi/gobbe/micra.html

http://us1.webpublications.com.au/static/images/articles/i22/2216_3mg.jpg
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